Leadership Espresso with Stefan Götz
In a world of constant change and complexity, true leadership isn’t about control— it’s about curiosity, clarity, and courage. Join Executive Coach Stefan Götz - www.stefan-goetz.com, as he helps accomplished leaders unlock their authentic leadership compass, inspire peak team performance, and achieve sustainable success—without sacrificing life beyond work. Whether you’re a seasoned executive or an emerging leader, this podcast will equip you with the mindset, strategies, and tools to lead with confidence, purpose, and impact.
Leadership Espresso with Stefan Götz
Benedictine Wisdom: Ancient Management Principles for Modern Leaders feat. Dr. Notker Wolf - Abbot Primate
What if the secrets to effective leadership were written down 1,500 years ago? The Benedictine order, with 25,000 monks and nuns worldwide operating schools, universities, breweries, and printing houses, offers leadership wisdom that challenges modern management assumptions in profound ways.
At the heart of Benedictine leadership lies a paradox: authority emerges not from asserting power but from serving others. "People who are concerned about their authority have already lost it," explains our guest, describing how consultation and listening create environments where people genuinely want to work. The Benedictine Rule instructs leaders to gather everyone when important decisions must be made, listening to all voices because "God often gives the younger one what is better."
This conversation reveals striking contrasts with conventional leadership practices. Rather than rushing to action during crises, Benedictine leaders prioritize reflection. Instead of defending their ideas, they create "fear-free spaces" where all contributions are valued. Talent development happens not through formal systems but by observing how individuals function within community—do they notice what's needed beyond their immediate tasks?
Most revolutionary is the understanding that leadership isn't about having answers but opening spaces for collective wisdom. When leaders admit "I don't have the solution" and genuinely invite contributions, they build high-performance teams united by shared purpose rather than command. As our guest emphasizes, "The solutions arise from the people... to perceive them first, to take them seriously, to listen, and to open up for a common solution."
Whether you lead a global organization or a small team, these centuries-old principles offer a refreshing alternative to ego-driven leadership. Listen now to discover how ancient wisdom might transform your approach to developing talent, navigating change, and creating environments where people and ideas flourish.
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https://www.stefan-goetz.com/
The World of the World of the World of the World of the World of the World of the World of the World of the World of the World. You are the spokesman of 25,000 monks and nuns worldwide and a global company, if you like, perhaps even one of the in companies as management personalities. I would like to compare it to a company that has worldwide branches which are autonomous, both in the USA, in Asia, in Europe, as well as in Africa, and a company that is almost twice as big as Porsche. And today we have the opportunity to talk to you about how the order, how this company, the Benedettina, is developing and how it is set up and how you, as the prime minister, as the top speaker in your office, but also as a person, how you lead this company and possibly go other ways than in a normal business, and maybe to your person.
Speaker 1:When I was researching and also in the phone calls that we had before in the conversations, it became clear to me that Ora et Labora is also meant in terms of vocabulary, because you have a pensive that is the same for a chairperson. Just hearing where you were the last ten days and what they did they were in the USA, they were in Amsterdam, they were in Zurich, they were in Hamburg. I think their account is very, very similar to that of other board members and what they do and their work in a few years, also since 2004, I think, they have published almost a dozen books. They are in the business council of Gotha. They have the Great German Welfare Cross, which was held in 2007. These are things that we perceive little by a monk and I think we want to explore something today. But what this monkship, these Benedictines, really allow us to do differently? And my first question is if we compare the Benedictines, these great orders, with a company, what kind of company would that be?
Speaker 2:It is very difficult to compare with an economic company, because the actual goal is the realization of a spiritual ideal and the personality within a community that wants to live the gospel. On the other hand, such an association, a monastery or a monastery association, must also exist, must survive. And Benedict gave the monks one thing on the way to live by their own hands. And if they really have to lay their hands on it, they should not be sad. It was not always great at that time, the enthusiasm to make your hands dirty here, but at that time it gave the evening land, our whole Western culture, a new trend to live from the work and to see the work as the fulfillment of human being, not as the only one but as a very important one. He says whoever does not work will fail in the music course. And even on Sundays the abbot is supposed to press a monk's work into his hand if he doesn't want to read or can't read. Even the sick should do a light job so that they don't go to music, because the music-gain is the enemy of the soul. And with that he actually laid the foundation for a culture of work which was otherwise seen in the evening land as a culture of slaves. If I look around the globe, in all cultures up to the recent past, handwork was actually a matter of slaves and women, and something completely new has emerged here and at the moment. When I have to organize the work, of course, the first simple management questions arise how to organize it reasonably?
Speaker 2:Benedikt also says, for example, that the abt should record which devices he has given out to work and they should be returned properly. First of all. These are very simple things that, let's say, repeat themselves in Africa today or have refined themselves throughout history. If today we have a large printing house in Santo Tilo, for example, then it must be guided according to modern facial view and it has to run like that. Or if we look at the Admont Stift in Austria, they have a lot of forests, but they say that the wood brings little money. Today it is about the processed wood. You have employees who throw new things on the market again and again, with doors, floors and more, to simply remain competitive. In the meantime, they are also connected to a Swedish company, because you can't do it alone anymore.
Speaker 1:I find that very exciting because, especially when we look at it, monasticism is first of all connected with prayer. That is one part of reality. The other part you have mentioned it from a wider perspective you are an economic company with a solidary mind with different business areas. Yes, how many people know that they not only do religious work, but that they ultimately also do agriculture, that they do breweries, that they have an area of education, and that is school education as well as higher education? We are sitting here near the Sant Anselmo High School, which trains priests worldwide.
Speaker 2:We have around 150,000 students around the globe.
Speaker 1:It's an absolute key sentence. You say as I have met you also from the account and description, and I would like to go into detail. I would like to start with your leadership culture, I would say also translated into corporate culture, which we have here, which is shaped by something called the Benedictine rule. Could you translate for us what a Benedictine rule is, what it is for and how we could compare it in the company?
Speaker 2:Yes, it is practically a relatively thin booklet with behavioral standards of a Christian community how to live, work and pray and study together. These are the basic rules of human interaction. To name a few, the first is full respect for the other, for the individual. The abd should know what difficult task he has taken to lead people and to serve the kind of many, what that means to serve the kind of many. An abd has only experienced this over the years. Then the second rule that whenever something important is to be decided in the monastery, the abbot calls all monks together and consults them. He places them there. Everyone should come to the word, but everyone should not be just, but listen fully and completely to the other, and then the abbe should go to the council with his own eyes and make the decision. The abbe is ultimately in the abbe's hands.
Speaker 2:There was no democratic co-delegation. That is the case today. That is already demanded by the church law, but it requires an incredible respect for each other. The employees, the fellow workers should not also express their opinion in an inappropriate way, but it should be a common search actually of the solution. What is the best? I don't have to make my own opinion and then stand out. That's not the point. Benedict said, and I can go into this he should listen to everyone, because God often gives the younger one what is better.
Speaker 1:Now we are getting very concrete.
Speaker 2:And that in the 6th century. If the community is bigger, then the abt should divide them into ten groups. He is to be divided into ten groups, decanated, and he is to appoint decanates at the top, men of good reputation, also those who of course go with him, those with whom he can carry and share the burden. So it is a sharing and sharing of responsibility, which is something completely different than just a delegation.
Speaker 1:I would like to take up some thoughts, because a major topic in leading companies is what we call the war for talents. Yes, so the talents for global companies to either bind themselves or to overcome, and we know very well from studies that money does not play the primary role. That is an entry card.
Speaker 2:Where one feels here he can unfold, here he is taken seriously, here he can also work relatively independently. That makes me happy. I also experienced it here right at the beginning of my office time very quickly afterwards, that people like to come here for work, come to work, and of course their apps are also kept, which I understand at home, but they would like to come. Or someone who had the finances here and the whole, let's say, economic interests of the house who was then calledbey two or three years later to his monastery to take up another task there, he said now that I finally feel comfortable at work, I have to go. I think that's the decisive thing that someone knows that he is respected and appreciated at his workplace, he can unfold himself, he does not have to show off too much because he is recognized anyway.
Speaker 2:It all lies very well with the boss, and I think that is the actual thing about leadership, which you cannot learn without anything else but which is up to the person in charge himself to let the others come, to let the talents of the others who are there develop. The important thing is to integrate the whole thing, but the individuals often know things much better. What should I intervene in the car. I understand much too little of it. I only say you have to do it. Well, it has to work, and I rely on that. That you can do it too, and if not, then I have to look for someone else.
Speaker 1:Yes, let's stay with the question of talents To recognize and promote the talents and to develop further, especially before the background. And I think we could get a lot of inspiration from that, because someone who enters a monastery so I would say enters a branch enters for a lifetime or for a long time. That means, with your Benedictine rule, that also includes leadership principles, so to speak. Do you have an idea of how you long-term this talent to recognize and develop?
Speaker 2:I can, through the with the people, recognize relatively quickly where his lie and, of course, where my weaknesses lie. But for example, if someone is very talented, then I send them to a good university. I also ask people out. I have a brother who is very talented. I sent him to the language institute in Bochum for crash courses in Chinese. He said in the long run we need someone who can speak Chinese well on our side and I just have to challenge him, otherwise he will fail, so to speak. But then to develop his skills.
Speaker 2:I sent another one to Sant'Anselmo to study philosophy and theology, not just for the sake of studying, but I wanted to give him a broader experience base, something that he could never have experienced at the University of Munich, for example. This internationality with us, also the diversity of the Benedictine traditions that he can experience in San Sansemo, the diversity of the cultures that come together here. We are here, for example, 120 men, mostly monks, who come from 40 nations and more. As a young person I already get a completely different experience. That means I want to allow my people to experience the best possible, training first of all, but training not in the sense of just a professional training, but a broad human experience.
Speaker 1:That's super exciting, because I stand in front of the questions as a manager at BMW, at Lufthansa, at Porsche, at Deutsche Bank. How do you do that? So is that the task of the abt? Do you have a system? Is it a gut feeling? How does he get there?
Speaker 2:So it's a bit of a gut feeling, I would say A bit of intuition, also, through the way I see it, whether someone is moving, whether he is only following a thing in a narrow path or whether he can do several things at the same time. Not everyone can do that. There are two very simple examples for me to recognize the fundamental flexibility and intelligence. This is the dining room. We serve each other and they come with the dishes. And then it's about taking care of all the fellow brothers. That's not a problem at the first time. But then to have a look at it, where is still something needed? There are people who stand in the car who scratch everything together. They are completely self-employed. And others, they see immediately where someone still needs something and to have that in mind, one is afraid to think about his little thing. The other does it so quickly next door but he has a view of the whole.
Speaker 2:And I notice it also with the table reader. At our table we read in advance, we have a table reader, we read at the table and there you can also see the spiritual or the abilities and the mobility, whether someone has a comprehensive overview. There are people who read letters pa pa, pa, pa, pa, one after the other. And then there are people who read syllables. That's a little better, but then it's hard to understand the whole text. There are people who read sentences. That's much better, but there are people you can feel that they have the whole paragraph in mind and read the text, not just sentences, and that's a piece of talent that someone brings along. It's just not everyone is suitable for everyone or, let's say, better suited, and therefore I have to use the people later.
Speaker 1:I have heard once that it is about perceiving what is needed. Yes, that requires a greater look, a look into connections in connection and requires the person in charge to perceive it.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:This makes it clear that they develop or bring with them greater things in their office or in their function or in the order. How is this taught?
Speaker 2:It is actually more due to the concrete challenge, so not because I would make a special course for it.
Speaker 2:The most important thing seems to me to be a fundamental attitude of the leader to serve the company or the people, that my position actually does not matter at all, whether I have authority or not.
Speaker 2:People who are concerned about their authority or concerned about it have already lost it. In the moment when I serve the other, or also a company philosophy where I constantly tinker and do it with others, the others feel so recognized that the recognition comes back to me, so I don't have to worry at all. I have to be on the road with the others, so to speak. That's what it's all about In the moment. When I'm just sitting at the desk and think about something, it goes like this next to it, I have met people who have really thought through everything in detail for their area, have thought through everything and have experienced a lot of opposition because someone has thought it out for them on the desk, maybe in the best intention, but I say we were not even asked. I was not even asked whether it was possible at all, whether it was even possible or if I wanted it at all.
Speaker 1:That means you talk about taking people with you, but also going together, and there is a piece of dialogue on the one hand. On the other hand, there was also the topic of authority. How does the leadership between dialogue and authority fit together? How is that practical?
Speaker 2:The authority comes, of course, first of all from the office itself. Because I am elected, I take over the office. Everyone has respect for that, otherwise he wouldn't have chosen you. You need someone who leads everything together and also continues to lead. Without authority it is impossible, otherwise it will be chaos. But it can also lead to chaos if someone thinks that he can do everything alone, that he can decide and decide everything alone. Especially insecure personalities are inclined to tie up and decide everything themselves.
Speaker 2:But the moment I really question the others and consult with them, a consciousness arises over a long time. I advise him, a consciousness arises over a long time. With this man you can work. It is not about his power, but he takes care of us and it is a pleasure to work with him. There is, then, one more thing.
Speaker 2:Very special case is with such meetings when people are not sure, leaders who are not able to listen to others because they are afraid that their concept will come together or they may have to be the whole thing and let it remain which they have been filled with great love. Then they start to tie cling, they get scared, and then the manipulation begins. Then such leaders think before a meeting how do I get the others to say yes, while I, for example, have always assumed that the problem is there and we have to solve it together, not how I want to solve it. I have to that is my responsibility deal with the question through previous advice, also make sure that I find a solution model. But it may then be that something completely different comes out in the end and the other has to feel that that doesn't matter to me.
Speaker 2:I once asked the entire members of the small board of directors in a difficult question at a project. But he had one oversight of the small committee, but he had overlooked one. And promptly, when I present the problem and say I could imagine that the solution would go in this direction, I was shot from the gun by the Asoa-schmarrn. Of course you breathe through it first if it comes along so abruptly, but then you don't to let it come out but to say it may be that it is a schmuck, but the problem is there and we have to solve it, and we have to solve it together now and there is no other solution. There is no other solution. But the biggest stupidity that I could have committed would have been if I had said Ed, we have now. You see, I was right. It's not about having the right, it's about finding the right path.
Speaker 1:How can I, as a leader, distinguish whether it is my employees or a game of change for me as a leader? So how do I recognize that it is simply a bad employee, or it is my way of leading him, or he is also reflecting on topics that I myself have not yet understood?
Speaker 2:It may also be that the chemistry is not quite right, as we often say. Then you have to think about what to do in the conversation. So if I say it is perhaps my fault, then I have to let myself be told. I don't think I can find everything from my own reflection. I also have to integrate the others so far that I am carried along myself and that the others also tell me what is missing and I, especially when it comes to myself, do not immediately turn away and defend myself. And that is the worst thing that can happen, this eternal self-defense, having the right and always the question what else do I have to say? After all, I have the responsibility. Yes, I have it, but I don't need to bang the other one from the bottom.
Speaker 1:I would like to go on, namely in something that you have named yourself. Your power consists in the powerlessness. Perhaps for the audience, please explain again what your role as a primus is in the whole order, in order to be able to integrate and understand this better.
Speaker 2:I think, from the leadership of my great monastery in St Ottilien and what I have learned there never to manipulate and never to be aware of my own power. The word power, it never lay with me. It was simply about us getting through something together, that we grow further, that it goes on. So that my successor said at the time, as he was asked by the journalists what would he do differently, change everything. Now he said he didn't know what he was supposed to change. The ship is on high seas and if he succeeds in continuing, well then it is the right way.
Speaker 2:It has never been about power to me back then, but I have always experienced our community stronger and stronger than a community, than an organism that actually has to grow together. And it is growing. There are changes coming, but they never have to be so abrupt. But it goes on, always on. But not that it only comes to the train ox or the parade horse at the top, but I have also experienced it elsewhere, like it is when the deichsel tears off behind the parade horse. But I say we are all on the way, this common awareness to give. The responsibility lies not only with me but with everyone, just like with you, but not in the moment. Yes, do it, but simply to give the other the feeling I am engaged, but I need you too.
Speaker 1:How do you convey this feeling?
Speaker 2:This is not possible without further action. This is due to the person in charge, to the basic attitude towards the others, to the meaning of what one call community or togetherness, and that's what the others feel. These are non-verbal communications. One experiences how to deal with one's suggestions or interventions and these are the actual learning processes. But I can only give advice, orientations, to say to take the others completely seriously and even on the dumbest question or the dumbest intervention which in my eyes is really stupid not to let yourself be taken down, not to react as stupidly, but to give a factually precise answer.
Speaker 2:This has the advantage that not only the one is satisfied.
Speaker 2:He knows that he can bring everything maybe it was also malicious, there are also such people and that you can't get out of it at all.
Speaker 2:But the others notice it too and have the courage to make their own interventions and they can say to themselves even if this intervention may seem so stupid, I will not be put down as the stupid one, but I will also get a solid answer, and that is a basic attitude towards other people. And so I can also convey to the other person I can't do it alone, I need you. That's what the prio in the house knows now, for example, the everyday togetherness. I have to leave that to him when it gets stuck. He does that and he tells me about it and asks me how we should do it. And I have learned to give him much more in the hand, ie to delegate, but also to give him much more in my hand. So to delegate but also to give him the feeling that I appreciate him. It is not like I just leave him tasks, but we talk about it and I think that talking to each other, the conversation, that's how you can tell how much I appreciate the others.
Speaker 1:Let's go back to the background of self-reflection. I experience for many leaders, especially in times of crisis, that they are actionists, that they don't know the way and that they are actionistic, that they don't know the way and that they are pouring themselves in with many projects, but rather the motto I have done everything.
Speaker 2:I think the first consequence of a rising fear must be the very sober reflection to turn back and think about what to do now and perhaps also to get the advice of others. Not exactly to think now I have to put a greater action on the table, but to think about what you have to do In every difficult situation in traffic. It does not help to go blindly, but I have to look over how the Roman traffic policeman does it on Piazza Venezia. It's unbelievable how he has everything in view. And these policemen were also brought to Canada to train their own police officers.
Speaker 2:And the Italians wondered how traffic can flow without any problems. But then the Canadians wondered how to do it. If there is really such a real knot, how to solve it in zero point, nothing. And the Italians have this piece of distance observation. This may also belong to the whole tradition, to the Renaissance that was actually in the Middle Ages, but especially in the Renaissance this sense of individuality, the dignity of the human being and also this piece of self-confidence, self-awareness which we can observe quite well in politicians. And just lean back. I would say the first thing to do when facing with a problem is the thought process, not the action. Some people talk before they think, and that should not be the case. What would you?
Speaker 1:like to see in the future. Let's take the challenge to the front again. We would like to have a high-performance team which moves something together on the market. What are the ingredients for me, as a leader, to create something like that?
Speaker 2:First of all, I have this vision now. That's the main task of a leader anyway to have a vision and to be flexible in that I can do it like this today, like that tomorrow, but it's always about a basic idea that I actually want to realize, but not just me. It is then necessary to call the others together and say how do we do this now? I recently held two sessions, again on a new project here in this house on a conversion question, and the people, the employees, said you can't do that. That had already shaken so high that no one wanted to work with the other, and I then made it clear to the people yes, we now have this problem in front of us and we have to solve it together, and I think everyone has their own role to play. It went as peacefully as one could not have imagined it to be. I then got an email afterwards also the thanks from two people who said it was such a great session.
Speaker 2:We need something like this more often and simply to say I need you. I think that is the most important thing. Then it is not an objective or theoretical recognition that I give to the other, but then he is challenged, but I myself must carry on the idea. The idea. I don't need to have invented it, it doesn't need to be grown on my mischief, but I must then make it my own. And in this, role model function.
Speaker 2:I am first enthusiastic and then the others are enthusiastic. The moment I am enthusiastic myself, when I talk about it, it excite the others. The moment I am excited and talk about it, it jumps over to others. This has to do with the human situation, with the emotionality and motivating means that I am first of all infinitely excited about something, but now I am relaxing the others and that I myself am first and foremost infinitely enthusiastic about something. And now the others are not saying you have to do this and that, but rather the question how do we do it?
Speaker 1:And that is the reverse of what we often experience, namely, not I have the answer, I have the solution, I have to have it, I was paid for it. But vice versa, open the room and even admit yourself I don't have the solution, and then the others come first and that's the entry card for the high performance team and makes me, as a leader, even stronger than weaker when I open this room for it, when I open up this space for it, and I think that's the most important thing that you can take on the way for the development of a high performance team. I would like to conclude our conversation with your idea, with your approach. You say, to create fear-free spaces or an atmosphere of freedom.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Quite practical if you give examples how do you create such spaces, such spaces of freedom.
Speaker 2:When I have a meeting and I have a problem and then I go and say dear people, what do you think about it? Is that really a problem? That's the first question. I see it, but it can also be something else, and the others just let it come in this way and not already lower it. There are also people who immediately when something else is thought of, feel it as opposition and have to defend themselves. The worst thing is to defend yourself. That can be an unbelievable spontaneous reaction.
Speaker 2:Everyone has to work on themselves. First, sit down and listen to it in all calm and then say to yourself next year so now we have. The problem is obviously there. We also have a few solutions. How should we proceed now To really integrate the others? They also have their heads and, for example, when it comes to products in a company, a salesperson knows ten times better how the needs of the customers change over time. I can answer that in a completely different way. My task as a leader is actually to be the one who listens to others and to myself to see how it should go on. And when the others notice that they are fully integrated and that the boss is not afraid of any stupid idea. Then it's a pleasure to work with each other, and then it's a community, to a certain extent like a big family, which is on the way, which simply continues and looks for solutions.
Speaker 2:And one thing is aware of we are now on this earth and there is never a perfect solution. If we have found a solution, then the problem may be something else again. And so we must also have this openness forever. And when I am open, then I hear, I think in such a climate, everyone's fear disappears. Fear is always there. Where someone is being cornered, where someone is immediately hit, how can you even think of such typical speech, how can you even it's the biggest nonsense, etc. Instead of saying, well, I'm not quite convinced of it yet, so I would, are there any other solutions? Just here, even if a group, then if there is a danger of tying themselves up, then to open up again To say people, I. To open yourself up again To say people, I'm not quite convinced yet, maybe there is something better. And then that stimulates. And I think this stimulating, this animating also to say this is a good solution. Now let's see what it looks like in ten years.
Speaker 2:I was once one who said I'm always for definitive solutions. That's wonderful. Over time, I also have to realize that a car is being used up, and that applies to all products. There is no eternity on this world. We have to keep on thinking. And all of these are certain basic attitudes that, in my opinion, come from a Christian view of humanity, from the attitude towards the individual but also towards the community, that I also take responsibility for the community and not only think of myself and also towards the things themselves. But in the end the joy of life should come through.
Speaker 1:And today I have know you again, today, precisely with this joy of life, with this ability to listen, to open up and, above all, one thing that will always remain in my memory one must like the people, and I think that was one thing beyond the Christian attitude, but also what has become very clear to me in this conversation today that the solutions arise from the people, the employees, the colleagues to perceive for the first time, to take seriously, to listen and to open up for a common solution. For a common solution, and maybe we don't need a CEO anymore who has to direct something, but a completely different understanding of leadership, which is shaped as you may see it here in the Order, by dialogue, by partnership, by respect to the other and his talents and to promote his talents.
Speaker 2:The other person must know that he is grateful if he has a good idea and not jealous.
Speaker 1:And I think that's a good credo to also very strong, very powerful and very creative for the solutions of employees, and that also helps the company. I thank you very much for your time, for your thoughts. I am very sure that we have received a lot of inspiration that encourages us to think for ourselves. And to what you said, before the action comes the reflection, and I think you invite us all to let a little more reflection grow in the leadership, and this less is then more for everyone. I thank you very, very much and look forward to many more writings. Someone who is perhaps especially interested in your book I personally advise to read the book the Art of man. It is really very well written and I think there are far more suggestions. Thank you very much, you are welcome.